In 2001, following the assault on the NDA facility, you queried the opening of the Defence Headquarters and different army services throughout the nation on Fridays for Islamic prayers. Your place then was that faith and socio-cultural points are the issues of insecurity in Nigeria. 4 years down the road, has something modified?
I’m not within the army circle, so I wouldn’t know if they’ve decreased the congregations on the Defence Headquarters and different army and paramilitary formations since I left in 2017. My interview then was actually speaking about my 35 years of army operations. However the huge image is that the problem of faith and socio-cultural issues has pervaded. It is vitally pervasive and nonetheless ongoing. So, if it has modified, I don’t assume we might have the scenario we’ve in Kwara and Benue states just lately. They’re getting stronger, and I believe President Tinubu must act in a short time. What he’s doing is attempting to be politically appropriate, and terrorists don’t forgive while you make errors in attempting to assuage them. You’ll be able to’t negotiate with them. What he must do is to spherical up all of the names which have been given to him as terrorist sponsors and take a look at them.
You condemned negotiation with terrorists, however the likes of Sheikh Gumi and others would disagree. Just lately, some northern leaders held public negotiation conferences with the terrorists wielding weapons in broad daylight. How will you describe that?
It’s an aberration. You don’t negotiate with terrorists. Secondly, the occasion in Katsina is a sign and symptom of a failed state. If armed militias can go round on bikes and other people can collect to debate with them, the query we need to ask is: are they negotiating on behalf of the Federal Authorities? Are they negotiating on behalf of the President and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces? We have to know. And I believe Tinubu is enjoying with hearth as a result of if that incident occurred and he has not interrogated that motion, then he’s enjoying with hearth. We have to know whether or not the 5 native governments that negotiated with the bandits took permission from the state authorities, and in the event that they did, we need to know whether or not the state governor took permission from the Federal Authorities. The facility and safety structure of this nation reside solely within the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces (the President). So, that incident goes to develop into a state apply, and finally, Nigeria will collapse. In case you proceed to condone this sort of factor that I noticed in Katsina, it’s going to result in state collapse.
The Federal Authorities as soon as claimed to have uncovered these financing insurgency, but there gave the impression to be no concrete motion afterward. Do you assume these sponsors are nonetheless working freely?
Sure, they’re nonetheless doing it and getting emboldened. You talked about any individual, have a look at the individuals like him parading themselves round. I did an interview on Come up TV and I challenged Tinubu, asking: what’s he afraid of? So, any individual isn’t just a sponsor but in addition like a mentor. And also you enable him to roam the streets since you’re afraid of him? What’s he afraid of? Till they arrive to Aso Rock and flush him out of the place? You shouldn’t be afraid of them; it’s best to take the bull by the horns. The Interpol, the DSS, and others have all this data. You’ll be able to’t say, due to political correctness, you enable them to floor your nation. They make your presidential tenure ungovernable, and they’re warming up towards 2027 to offer him the remedy they gave Goodluck Jonathan, and they’re boasting about it. They’re telling him to go and ask Jonathan, who was the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. They’re impudent to be difficult him. A few of these individuals ought to have been rounded up a very long time in the past. They made a lot cash throughout Buhari’s time. They mainly milked the CBN dry, and so they have a lot cash to mess around with. So, for me, Tinubu ought to do the suitable factor: name all of the intelligence chiefs collectively and provides them a activity, determine each the home and international sponsors of terrorism in Nigeria. The international components are from some Islamic nations, whereas the home side has to do with our personal individuals right here. The DIA is aware of them. When you spherical them up, strive them for treason, and execute the punishment, you will note that terrorism in Nigeria shall be decreased by half.
As for the international components, there are procedures. I used to be within the DIA and was in command of international liaison. It’s best to activate that code, they’ll hint the cash. What’s the job of the CBN? What’s EFCC doing? They need to hint the cash because it’s coming in: who’s sponsoring what in Nigeria, and who’re the individuals establishing sure {financial} establishments right here, and for what goal? It’s for cash laundering. They set up {financial} establishments and use them to launder cash out and in. You can not mainly question them as a result of the CBN Act permits them to function within the nation. So, how do you hint the cash when the {financial} devices are already hijacked?
Why has the Federal Authorities discovered it troublesome to prosecute the recognized sponsors of terrorism?
The democracy that we run is such that individuals finance political actions. If you wish to be a governor, senator, or president; it’s good to get a sponsor. No matter you need to be within the political sphere, there are individuals who sponsor your ambition. They don’t seem to be in authorities, however they name the photographs. Sadly, in Nigeria, these are the individuals who, due to non secular and {economic} causes, sponsor individuals to energy. And when you find yourself in energy, you can’t problem them. How will you now arrest the individuals that really helped you to develop into no matter you might be within the political area? The second purpose is that, after they sponsor you to be in these positions, additionally they sponsor one other set of people that shall be in sure strategic positions within the nation. You’ll be able to’t maintain a sure ministerial appointment if you’re not sponsored by the deep stakes and pushed down the throat of the president to appoint you. And if you happen to get to the Senate, additionally they have their cronies there. So, these are the identical individuals sponsoring terrorism for {economic} and spiritual causes. When their names are talked about, as being performed, you can’t arrest them as a result of they made you. That’s why individuals like me can not aspire to be a governor or a senator, as a result of I understand how they do it.
Doesn’t that elevate questions on our apply of democracy in Nigeria?
Within the worldwide sense, there’s nothing mistaken with permitting individuals to vote for who they need. The one factor is that in Nigeria, it has develop into money and carry. When you’ve got cash, then you’ll be able to develop into a senator, governor, or anything. Or, if you happen to don’t have cash however have an enormous sponsor, you then could be a minister or governor. So, is that democracy? The reply isn’t any. I believe it’s the implementation of democratic norms and practices that’s mistaken. It’s the operators of the system which are destroying democracy. However in actuality, democracy just isn’t a nasty factor.
Many have raised considerations concerning the choice of the Federal Authorities on the rehabilitation and launch of some terrorists. How will you react to that?
What I found is that there are numerous half-educated individuals within the authorities. They’re attempting to repeat the United Nations Conference. If there’s a rebel and possibly there isn’t a victory, no vanquished, or no one received, there’s what you name DDR, which means you need to demobilise or disarm them and reintegrate them into society. So, there’s that system designed by the United Nations. What these individuals did was to use it to the Boko Haram problem. We designed it for the Niger Delta militants after I did the operation for the nation. It utilized to the Niger Delta in a manner as a result of that they had a reputable purpose for what they had been doing, useful resource management. However these individuals (terrorists) which are killing individuals, what’s their purpose? As a result of the Niger Delta militants had a reputable purpose, a 13% derivation was launched, numerous different incentives had been offered, and the Niger Delta states, like Delta, Bayelsa, Rivers, and others which are oil-producing, are doing properly as we speak.
The problem has been minimised, and the pressure on the safety setting there was manageable since that point.
The problem within the North just isn’t the identical with that of the Niger Delta. They mentioned they need to be forgiven and reintegrated. What are you forgiving them for? These are simply criminals. You’ll be able to’t even actually name them non-state actors. These are simply criminals introduced in from different nations. They don’t seem to be even Nigerians. So, why do you begin placing them within the armed forces? What’s going on? This nation goes to blow up possibly within the subsequent 20 or 30 years as a result of all of the individuals you might be reintegrating and placing into the army are going to develop into main generals quickly. And they’ll command your military, then flip the nation into an Islamic state. What they’re doing is mistaken, and must be stopped. They need to meet this pressure with pressure as a result of it is a terrorist motion.
Have been the Niger Delta militants not terrorists?
The Niger Delta militants should not terrorists. They’ve by no means been labeled as terrorists. I prosecuted the Niger Delta problem, and there was no time we sat down at a safety and intelligence briefing to categorise them as terrorists. They had been by no means terrorists. However these ones from the North, they’re terrorists, and so they have been labeled as such by the President. So, you now say you’re going to negotiate with terrorists and reintegrate and rehabilitate them? These ones they rehabilitated to this point have gone again to the bush. They’re those leaking data to these within the bush to know the place to strike. These are the identical individuals making certain that our safety males are dying now. You don’t do issues like that. It’s an aberration. It’s very mistaken.
Wouldn’t it even be mistaken to have labelled Nnamdi Kanu a terrorist, given that he’s agitating towards the marginalisation of his area?
If I had been to talk as an expert, I’d say what they did to Kanu was a badly executed operation. It was poorly performed. They simply needed to repeat what we did to the chief of MEND (Motion for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta), Henry Okah, throughout Yar’Adua’s administration. However these persons are very corrupt and will be very irritating. Have a look at how the job was badly performed throughout Buhari’s authorities. You went to Kenya to seize him after which introduced him to Abuja, the place you paraded him on the airport. As an expert, I adopted the development, and I noticed that the individuals who carried out that operation had been presupposed to be dismissed from the military and the safety companies. The chief of MEND was a more durable job to deal with than Kanu. We had been speaking about horrible, hardened individuals, and we received approval from Yar’Adua to enter the operation. We introduced him to Nigeria, no one knew the place he got here from or the place we took him to till he appeared in courtroom. However right here, Kanu was introduced in and positioned on a chair, and other people had been taking footage.
On Nnamdi Kanu problem, it’s political, and I’m not a politician. I hate politics. As I mentioned earlier, I prosecuted the MEND chief in Jos. We moved him from Abuja to Bauchi. We flew him at evening to courtroom and took him again to his detention facility with none media understanding. However that was not so in Kanu’s case. It was solely when the then Legal professional-Common mentioned they felt we should always enable the MEND chief to go that I withdrew from the case.
Why did you withdraw from the case?
It isn’t but time to speak about this nation. However I don’t need to point out the SAN who was with me and knew particulars about this problem. A few of these individuals felt that it’s a political factor, and I withdrew. Now, you need to do the identical factor to Nnamdi Kanu, have a look at what they did.
The President just lately granted pardon to some convicted criminals, a call that has generated combined reactions. What’s your view on this?
Mr President has the prerogative of mercy. He can forgive whoever he needs and all people can interpret it nevertheless they need. Even state governors do it. The President can launch all of the criminals if he needs. He could produce other deeper causes which the media could not perceive. That’s the reality. You don’t perceive worldwide politics typically. There could also be negotiations happening between the Nigerian authorities and sure individuals who say, “launch our prisoners,” and he launched them. However you can be shouting that they’re drug sellers. You’ll by no means know what’s going on behind the scenes.
You as soon as mentioned some individuals had intentions to Islamise the nation. Are you continue to holding onto that notion?
Sure, I’ve recognized this as a result of I labored quite a bit with the Fulanis. I labored with all these Abacha and Abdulsalami {groups}, though it’s Kanuri, and I do know that’s what they need. We arrested individuals after I was in fight intelligence, we interviewed them, and so they instructed us. There are cases, after we went into fight, battle, arrest individuals, convey them into detention, and interrogate them. A common would come and say they need to launch him, and I’ve proof: identify, time, and place.
Why was that so?
After all, the senior common is of the identical faith as these Boko Haram individuals and so they have the identical agenda. So, they only say, “launch them.” These had been individuals we caught in fight. No matter I mentioned three years in the past, simply as I’m saying now, I shall be criticised due to their stage of information. Once I mentioned these issues three years in the past, they criticised me. There was numerous hue and cry. I’m an expert. I do know when to declassify data. I do know when data is prime secret and confidential. There’s data for the eyes and ears of the C-in-C solely. So, no one must be telling me I’m saying one thing that I’m not presupposed to say to the media. I do know that after 10 or 15 years, you’ll be able to declassify sure data. The Fulanis need to Islamise this nation and there’s little question about that. It’s apparent. They tried by means of the bush, killing individuals and bombing in every single place. It was taking time; they had been in a rush. They went by means of the legislative arm to take away issues from the Structure. The kinetic method didn’t work, and now they’ve gone again to the bush to start out killing individuals. There aren’t any different causes: it’s each an islamisation agenda and a manner for them to have limitless entry to the uncooked supplies within the nation, in order that they’ll take them at no cost to Dubai, Belgium, France, New York and develop into extraordinarily rich. For them, you’ll be able to’t distinguish between commerce and faith. A few of us are about to go, however we hope that our sleeping civil society will get up.
Just lately there was a rumoured coup plot. What’s your message to some Nigerians who’re craving for army rule?
I took half within the arrest of numerous coup plotters and helped in prosecuting them, together with that of the (Maj. Gideon) Orkar coup and several other others. We additionally did analysis and evaluation on them. Once I checked out this one they’re speaking about, it doesn’t look actual to me due to the indices. I don’t need to educate you how one can plan a coup. Besides the individuals planning this are very naïve or they’re on a suicide mission, this isn’t how you propose a coup. Possibly they’re very emotional or annoyed, as a result of I can not see them succeeding. It isn’t doable, as a result of with what I’ve seen, that isn’t how one can plan a coup. Why the Orkar coup failed was as a result of they got here very emotional. After getting feelings, you will have failed earlier than you begin. I believe if the Federal Authorities is critical, they need to seek the advice of individuals like us to assist. A coup is an aberration. I’ve been within the army and I do know that it’s higher to have this democracy than to have army coup. Individuals don’t perceive army males; don’t allow them to get into energy to control. They don’t function with feelings. I’m not emotional, and that’s the reason I can discuss like this. In case you assume that I’ve performed one thing mistaken, you’ll be able to try to kill me, that isn’t an enormous deal. The best way persons are behaving on this nation, if I had been in authorities, I may have killed possibly half of them, and that’s the reason I’m not in authorities and I’m not . Have a look at the way in which persons are stealing cash and also you enable them to be strolling round with their huge stomachs. I’d have executed most of them. So, don’t enable army males to get to energy.
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If you’d like, I can do the following batch for the rest of the interview in the identical clear paragraph format so it’s totally able to learn or publish. Would you like me to do this?